Interesting reader mail

[cupcake_goth]

This is one of the emails that turned up in the Gothic Charm School inbox this morning:

It was recently brought to my attention by way of a post on one of my forums that
you will be holding a tea party in a cemetery to celebrate your book release.

I just wanted to say that I think this is highly disrespectful and tacky. And before
you judge me to be some uptight soccer mom who came across your site, let me tell
you that I am in your target audience. I am into both romantic goth style and spent
a good number of years this way and also and into lolita street fashion. Your book
is something that I would have picked up in a store to keep on my bookshelf/coffee
table and encouraged my friends to buy as well. However I don't think I will be
doing anything of the sort. I am saddened to see that you show such little respect
for the people of the cemetery.

Hmmm. I need to double-check some of my sources, but from what I remember, the big public/non-churchyard cemeteries were, to some extent, intended as large public parks. Or at least, they were certainly treated that way for a very long time. I am planning on answering her, but like I said, I need to check my sources and do some more research.

Behind the cut-tag, my to-do list. Not terribly exciting, I realize, but good heavens, I need one.


- Laundry.
- Shorten one of the hoop skirts so it's the right length for under the stripy skirt mineke made me.
- Figure out what I'm wearing for the course of the NYC trip.
- Write an actual answering questions -type GCS post.
- Make sure all the ingredients are ready for tonight's dinner. (Cobb salad, which means oh right, I need to cook bacon.)
- DYE HAIR.
- Aspirin mask.
- EMAIL AGENT.
- Send Bluejay more fic links. (muah-ha-ha-ha!)
- Send thank you mail to Miss K. at Aromaleigh for mentioning the GCS book on her blog. DO NOT browse the Aromaleigh site, as I do not have spending money for makeup at the moment.
- Upper arm exercises. (Now if they'd just start showing some results soon, that would be lovely.)


::siiiiiiiiigh:: Don'wanna. Would rather nap, and watch movies with the Stroppy One.

Comments

[gchick.livejournal.com]

http://www.nps.gov/history/nr/publications/bulletins/nrb41/nrb41_5.htm

Scroll about halfway down for the section on the rural cemetery tradition (although the earlier part is interesting too!). Not only were cemeteries commonly used like we now use parks, and designed for such starting around the early 19th century, they were one of the major influences on the later design and usage of parks and decorative landscapes. Hrrrmph, I say!

[cupcake-goth.livejournal.com]

Woo! Thank you, hon! I knew that there were sources that backed up my vague memory.

[madamekat.livejournal.com]

I remember when I was looking for a cemetery to be married in, I came across similar sentiment. Managers of cemeteries informed me that their patrons would be appalled to see people celebrating life amongst the dead, that they would be insulted and angered. When I did finally find one that allowed it ...away from the graves in their chapel... I was instructed not to go near the graves at any point. Most people today have no idea that graveyards used to be a place families would come and picnic for the day.

Here is a historic cemetery in my area that understands cemeteries the way you and I do...http://www.thelaurelhillcemetery.org/index.php?flash=1

"Since the earliest days of Laurel Hill, the founders and managers of the Cemetery recognized the great potential for recreation that the rural, picturesque site held. Laurel Hill preceded New York’s Central Park by more than two decades, and was most certainly an inspiration for Philadelphia’s Fairmount Park. Picnics, strolls, carriage rides and sightseeing were popular pastimes in Laurel Hill’s early days, when “nearly 30,000 persons…entered the gates between April and December, 1848.” The site continues to remain a favored retreat for tourists, joggers, bicyclists, nature lovers, sketch artists and amateur photographers."

[lord-whimsy.livejournal.com]

http://lord-whimsy.livejournal.com/372269.html

[lord-whimsy.livejournal.com]

Can't imagine anything more amenable to the dead than to once more finding themselves among the living and earthly pleasures.

Anyone wanting to have a picnic on my grave is most welcome. I'm sure I'd appreciate the company.

[snobahr.livejournal.com]

1. The people in the cemetary are dead. If they want to complain about good-natured, non-destructive merriment going on overhead, they are welcome to speak up. I imagine that if they do this, their wishes will be respected, and with all due alacrity.
2. Many cemetaries accept donations. This helps with maintenance of (older) grave markers, as well as the general maintenance of the grounds and buildings, and equipment.
3. If I were dead and you happened to have your tea party on/near/within sight of my grave, I'd be pleased as punch. I know you wouldn't know me for my headstone or anything like that - I just like the idea of tea parties in cemetaries... provided they're good-natured and non-destructive. And that ya'll clean up after yourselves - you wouldn't want me rising from the dead to take you to task, after all.

[spectralbovine.livejournal.com]

I assumed the person was concerned about the living visitors of the dead being disturbed and appalled by the gaiety of a tea party getting in the way of their somber mourning.

[oldhalloween.livejournal.com]

Yes, cemeteries were the fist public parks. I also can empathize with what she has to say when the tea is not done properly. Its a big fundraiser for many historic cemeteries but IMHO graves should be respected. For example, at our local historic cemetery they set up the tents over some marked graves because space is limited. Its easy to step on great grandma if you aren't being careful and that defeats the whole purpose of raising money and awareness to preserve the cemetery. The tea is being held at Green-Wood with sprawling public spaces meant for the enjoyment of the living and celebrating the dead. Space is not an issue.

[icprncs.livejournal.com]

This viewpoint, to me, is just another example of how our society has completely isolated death from the context of everyday life, even though death is one of the only two things guaranteed to all of us. Why should our places of rememberance and memorial be somber, shut-away places that we only go to for sorrow? They should be about celebrating life as much as remembering the dead.

[theblackdeer.livejournal.com]

I agree with this. This is why people couldn't fathom when I was doing my clinicals in a nursing home. "OMG what if someone died on your watch?" Uh...yeah? People die, every last one of us, even you...but of course I never really said that.

As a matter of fact, Mom going to hospice was extremely pleasant. I wish more people would treat death as something natural.

[tjcrowley.livejournal.com]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/4446958/Decline-of-Picnics-Another-Canary-in-the-Coal-Mine

This link states that one theory about the ORIGINS of picnics was cemetery days where families would clean graves - not very disrespectful IMHO. Without cemeteries there would be no picnics!

[rikibeth.livejournal.com]

That's a weird theory, considering that medieval fetes champetres pre-date cemeteries (as opposed to churchyards, which were quite a different kettle of fish) by several centuries. Oh, wait... reading further... he's talking about single-family picnics. Okay, not so weird, but picnics in the sense of "eating outside" definitely pre-date cemeteries.

Edited to add: I knew there was something else I was going to say. The Episcopal church a friend of mine belongs to has a small courtyard that's a memorial garden -- I don't know if it contains actual remains, but there are definitely memorial plaques as well as the lovely cherry trees and flowerbeds.

My friend had her wedding reception there, and nobody thought it was disrespectful at ALL -- and it wasn't a goth wedding, either. Bridesmaids in flowered chintz!

edited again to fix tag, dammit.

[theblackdeer.livejournal.com]

We have several cemeteries here that are set up as parks. One such park has tourist attractions like famous people buried there (Thomas Wolfe, etc) and park benches and walking paths for people to enjoy. My sister used to walk there every day.

Yeah, I am sensitive about goths who don't get the whole death thing, really...but this is not applicable, IMO.

[javagoth.livejournal.com]

Lame. Really - as if the dead care what the living do. It would be one thing if you were a grave robber or even if the picnic had already been done and a large mess was left. Neither is the case.

Clearly she didn't bother to look up the cemetery web site - is she planning to scold them as well since they have a long tradition of having tours, celebrations, and carriage rides there?

Another link too because it includes the cemetery you're picnicking at: http://www.alsirat.com/silence/history.html -- the pertinent parts re near the bottom of the page.

[maudelynn.livejournal.com]

some people need to open a book, or take the time to realise that their opinions are the be all end all, before judging others

if you need a bit of research to back your reply here is a bit...

some people made a day trip of visits to asylums and prisons, too...

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~ma96/forrest/WW/tour.html

[ieatedyourcooki.livejournal.com]

I have to speculate that it may be one of the girls in egl due to the issues they have had with graveyard photoshoots/events before, and this information was advertised there not too long ago.

[ieatedyourcooki.livejournal.com]

ah i seem to have missed the part where they actually said they were lolita. well, then I feel pretty sturdy in saying that.

You need to read

[maiaarts.livejournal.com]

The Day of the Dead traditions of the people of Mexico are very clearly written in Mean Streets (a novella collection) - The Third Death of the Little Clay Dog by Kat Richardson. People bring the whole family to the cemeteries to have all the generations of family share in the celebration.

I had a picnic in Highgate Cemetery in London - as were many others. They were taking money to tour the other section. I will go find out if there is a long tradition in Europe.

I think the idea of 'disrespecting' people is very Puritan but I will double check Highgate. It is listed as a Grade II Historic Park.

Re: You need to read

[poh.livejournal.com]

In Japan, people also have picnics in cemeteries and take the time to clean the headstones and remember their ancestors. There is not this tradition in the U.S., not for *all* our dead, and I don't know why.

Why not ask Greenwood Cemetary?

[maiaarts.livejournal.com]

Greenwood Cemetery should have all the information you could wish about this issue - they after all are the ones allowing it to happen. I am sure they would want to support you in your answers on this issue.

Re: Why not ask Greenwood Cemetary?

[javagoth.livejournal.com]

Heck just point them to their web site - there's actually quite a lot of information there. I spent time reading it when I first heard about the picnic that I'm still sorry I will not get to go to...

[cordelia-rose.livejournal.com]

I used to hate cemeteries. It seemed such a huge WASTE of space, and money, etc. It wasn't until I found out that they were designed as public parks. Suddenly it all made sense, the beautiful greenery and statuary weren't just a show of wealth or for the comfort of the bodies, they were for the people visiting. Now I have lunch in a cometary near my university pretty often, and feel no shame at all. If we didn't USE the spaces for something other than mourning... well it seems like a pretty gross waste of space and resources.

[harlequin-elf.livejournal.com]

Oh booger, that is just plain silly! someones choker is to tight, and they aren't getting enough air.
Really... if anyone wanted to have fun around my grave because they thought it was pretty, go for it. I won't complain. :P (And if I did, I'm sure it would be along the lines of "Brains, BBBBBRRRAINS!)

[queeniex.livejournal.com]

wow that is just silly to me.
first off, if it wasn't intended to use it as a park, there would be big 'keep off the graves' signs everywhere.

having a tea party and celebrating the life that has passed up is a wonderful thing.
we do it all the time, the cemetery is beautiful!

i wouldn't go so far as bring a slip and slide or a frisbee though lol

[girlgoth.livejournal.com]

i wouldn't go so far as bring a slip and slide or a frisbee though lol

I just wanted to say that I actually LOL'd at that visual. :D

I think I smell a WASP.

[loree.livejournal.com]

Her cultural ignorance is showing. Celebrations in cemeteries are fairly common throughout Europe, Asia, Central and South America, and some parts of Africa.

Re: I think I smell a WASP.

[aka-paloma.livejournal.com]

Indeed. If there's anything in all this that is "tacky" and "disrespectful" it's her narrow-minded and blinkered view of how the many cultures around the world perceive and honour their dead. That, coupled with her ignorance about this particular cemetery's history and function in the community, might have made her attitude laughable if it wasn't so annoying.

I mean, what does she think is going to go on at the tea party? I've only been lurking about on cupcake_goth's LJ for about a year now and I don't know her in RL, so I don't claim to be an expert on her mindset, but I can't imagine a function she's going to take part in will devolve into, oh... I don't know. An obnoxious mess where the trees get the TP treatment with black crepe paper and the graves end up covered in graffiti stating "Bela Lugosi was here"...? Or, something like this:

IDK, but yes the idea of having a party there just to be "oooh~ counter culture and creeeepy" is so lame on top of being disrespectful. I thought that the whole goth kids draping themselves over gavestones thing was over.

That quote came from here (http://community.livejournal.com/egl/13773031.html?thread=287500007#t287500007).

What parts of "Lady of the Manners" and "Gothic Charm School" do these people not understand? Yeesh.

(SORRY. THIS WHOLE THING HAS MADE ME A BIT RANTY.)
(ALSO, EDITED FOR TYPOS. *SIGH*)
(ARGH!! SORRY FOR SPAMMING YOUR INBOX WITH NOTIFICATIONS OF MY INEPTITUDE TODAY!)

[keltickalypso.livejournal.com]

Driving past the San Fernando Mission Cemetery in the northern reaches of the Valley, on Father's day last month, had plenty of picnic'ers having a beautiful day. It is cultural, as I have family that 'does' the cemetery thing and family that 'does not'!

Have a beautiful tea! I look forward to a post of pictures...

[torreybird.livejournal.com]

Right after Ed died, the grief was too fresh for me to have enjoyed a tea among the other dead. Though that says more about my grieving than about the "proper" respect due to mourners! Further, it is my understanding that there is often quite a distance between the recent graves and the promoted picnic/gathering sites in an established cemetary, to avoid just these sorts of clashes.

On the other hand, churchyards in villages and towns would bury the dead and baptise the babies on the same grounds they would gather the congregation to celebrate. Widows and mourners were treated with respect, and it was socially permitted to excuse oneself.

[rocket-jockey.livejournal.com]

Most of the churches my Spouse and I visited in Ireland had people buried under the floorstones and entombed in the walls. People have parties and weddings and baptisms and Sunday mass in the buildings, standing and sitting atop the memorial stones.

And even in this country, youi see the same thing - the first college I attended was founded in the 19th century. The founding president of the college and his wife were buried under the central foundation stone for the then-new main building, right beneath the main auditorium housing the pipe-organ. Or Adlersheim Chapel in Juneau, where the founding priest is buried beneath the altar and the second priest is buried under the picnic lawn.

[kambriel.livejournal.com]

Many of the larger (especially when set in large urban areas with a lack of park space) garden cemeteries were *intended* for just such a thing ~ as a lovely expanse of beautiful and sentimental land for families to gather, stroll, picnic, ride bicycles, etc... There are ones in Boston that take it a step further, and actually include outdoor art displays, historical walks, buddhist lantern/candle ceremonies, etc... The people who chose those places to be buried (or the families that chose it for them), knew that's the kind of environment they were being interred.

By the way, I just checked and the weather is going to be delightful ~ nary a 90 degree in sight!

[theda-bara.livejournal.com]

I agree with ieatedyourcooki-this probably came from someone in this thread:
here ().

Dia de los Muertos is a perfect example of people respectfully honoring their loved ones in a cemetery, complete with food and drinks.

I don't see a problem with holding your event in this place, and I doubt you'll allow anyone to trash, or destroy anything there.

[theda-bara.livejournal.com]

Oookie, for some reason my link ain't workin', so I'll just send you this:
http://community.livejournal.com/egl/13773031.html?nc=18

[jaborwhalky.livejournal.com]

Yes ;-)
It dose,
we would not have it in all the papers, Mags and the TV news if if Green wood did not give the OK for this event over a month ago.

[aprilstarchild.livejournal.com]

Oh good, someone linked to the egl entry anyway.

In any case, most of the ladies there disagreed with her. So I wouldn't worry about it much.

[domestinatrix.livejournal.com]

I grew up in an older city in New York State with a beautiful Victorian cemetery that was definitely intended as a picnic site. Long after it fell out of fashion to have parties there on Sundays, everyone still went on tours of the beautiful older sections and freely wandered around the newer sections still currently in active use. When my Girl Scouts troupe went on our guided tour Mt. Hope Cemetery, one of the nice features pointed out to us was the beautiful drinking fountain in one of the popular picnic areas.

Can I ask what city this woman is writing to you from? I'm guessing it must be someplace with less history where she may not have learned that this used to be an absolutely normal, mainstream, and respectful use of cemeteries. Come to think of it, it seems like everyone I knew back East hung out in cemeteries at least now and then, no one ever left a mess or caused any trouble there. If anything, it's considered a nice way to keep the dead present in our lives, and to gently remind us "in the midst of life we are in death." I guess most people don't do that so much in some places, do they? I think she does have a valid concern, but it's just because she's ignorant.