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Over the past few weeks, I've been looking at goth magazines from the 80s and 90s. The issues of Carpe Noctem that ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
stroppy_baggage discovered in the basement, a stack of Propaganda issues that I bought off of eBay. (Stop looking at me like that, most of the issues have actual interviews and pictures of the bands and random club-goers, and very few 'anorexic boi in eyeliner and skimpy clothing and/or Nazi regailia' Fred Berger photo spreads.)
The upshot is, I'm all nostalgic about the pre-Internet goth culture*, and I'm trying to figure out (1) what I'm feeling nostalgic for, and (2) if what I'm missing still exists in The Scene somewhere, just not in Seattle.
Thing the First: What am I feeling nostalgic about? That's a good question. I think I'm feeling most nostalgic about the level of day-to-day involvement people had (or seemed to have), specifically in terms of The Look. Back In The Day, if you were part of the gothic subculture, you looked it. You wore the makeup, you had the funny hair, you wore drippy lace & velvet or a leather jacket that you had spent hours customizing. Leggings and band t-shirts, but still worn with a face-full of dark eyeshadow, eyeliner, and lipstick. Not everyone wants to go to that level of effort or bother for their appearance, and certainly not their day-to-day life, I get that. But that doesn't mean that I don't miss it. And I especially miss it when I go to a goth club or a show.
Thing the Second: So, am I missing out on the extravagant gothy fashion plates because I pretty much only go out on Wednesday nights, and most people can't be bothered to get all tarted up on a weeknight? Are there wildly dressed-up peeps out and about on the weekends at the Mercury, the Vogue, or Noc-Noc?
Or, is it yet again a case of that there are only a handful of people in the Seattle scene that are willing to make that effort consistently? I have no idea. I suspect that gothy-types in other cities are a little more extravagant in their plumage, but I don't know for sure.
*I say "pre-Internet goth culture", because (and hoo-boy, do I feel like a complete elitist bitch for saying this) before the rise of the Internet, if you said you were a goth, you pretty much had to prove it with the way you looked, what you listened to, what you read, and how you lived. Black lace draped over everything, dried roses hanging on the walls, stacks of old, obscure books on shelves, and a sense of ... earnestness? That's not quite right, because there was a lot of laughing and gentle teasing/mocking at how ridiculous and over-the-top we all could be, but there wasn't quite the level of ironic cynicism and jadedness that there is today.
Whereas in today's online goth culture ... anyone can say they are a goth, and if they're even the slightest bit clever, they can do a quick bit of research and know the right things to say to back that up. If they're unscrupulous, they'll swipe other people's photos to show how darkly glamorous "they" are, and frequently have other people convinced that no, that really IS a picture of them.
Don't get me wrong, I think the rise of the global goth online culture is a pretty good thing. I think that the web has strengthened and improved the scene overall. But I also think that the boundaries and definitions of What Is Goth have become so elastic that they're almost unrecognizable and meaningless.
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My goodness, that was a long ramble, wasn't it? I'll be interested to see if anyone has any comments.
stroppy_baggage discovered in the basement, a stack of Propaganda issues that I bought off of eBay. (Stop looking at me like that, most of the issues have actual interviews and pictures of the bands and random club-goers, and very few 'anorexic boi in eyeliner and skimpy clothing and/or Nazi regailia' Fred Berger photo spreads.)The upshot is, I'm all nostalgic about the pre-Internet goth culture*, and I'm trying to figure out (1) what I'm feeling nostalgic for, and (2) if what I'm missing still exists in The Scene somewhere, just not in Seattle.
Thing the First: What am I feeling nostalgic about? That's a good question. I think I'm feeling most nostalgic about the level of day-to-day involvement people had (or seemed to have), specifically in terms of The Look. Back In The Day, if you were part of the gothic subculture, you looked it. You wore the makeup, you had the funny hair, you wore drippy lace & velvet or a leather jacket that you had spent hours customizing. Leggings and band t-shirts, but still worn with a face-full of dark eyeshadow, eyeliner, and lipstick. Not everyone wants to go to that level of effort or bother for their appearance, and certainly not their day-to-day life, I get that. But that doesn't mean that I don't miss it. And I especially miss it when I go to a goth club or a show.
Thing the Second: So, am I missing out on the extravagant gothy fashion plates because I pretty much only go out on Wednesday nights, and most people can't be bothered to get all tarted up on a weeknight? Are there wildly dressed-up peeps out and about on the weekends at the Mercury, the Vogue, or Noc-Noc?
Or, is it yet again a case of that there are only a handful of people in the Seattle scene that are willing to make that effort consistently? I have no idea. I suspect that gothy-types in other cities are a little more extravagant in their plumage, but I don't know for sure.
*I say "pre-Internet goth culture", because (and hoo-boy, do I feel like a complete elitist bitch for saying this) before the rise of the Internet, if you said you were a goth, you pretty much had to prove it with the way you looked, what you listened to, what you read, and how you lived. Black lace draped over everything, dried roses hanging on the walls, stacks of old, obscure books on shelves, and a sense of ... earnestness? That's not quite right, because there was a lot of laughing and gentle teasing/mocking at how ridiculous and over-the-top we all could be, but there wasn't quite the level of ironic cynicism and jadedness that there is today.
Whereas in today's online goth culture ... anyone can say they are a goth, and if they're even the slightest bit clever, they can do a quick bit of research and know the right things to say to back that up. If they're unscrupulous, they'll swipe other people's photos to show how darkly glamorous "they" are, and frequently have other people convinced that no, that really IS a picture of them.
Don't get me wrong, I think the rise of the global goth online culture is a pretty good thing. I think that the web has strengthened and improved the scene overall. But I also think that the boundaries and definitions of What Is Goth have become so elastic that they're almost unrecognizable and meaningless.
...
...
My goodness, that was a long ramble, wasn't it? I'll be interested to see if anyone has any comments.
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I suspect that gothy-types in other cities are a little more extravagant in their plumage, but I don't know for sure.
Hmmm. The darksiders here definitely do get gussied for public nights, but they lean toward industrial or sexxay, not Victorian. I haven't seen old-skool Siouxie hair here in a dog's age. Then again, I didn't go to the gothy prom held a few months ago.
Not much of content, but I wanted to comment. :)
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I don't know how much the internet is a factor in the change. I have to think on that some more.
Another thing to ponder: much of the time, art and counter-culture reflect the economy and politics of the time, and the 80s were a very ...interesting time. And so is now... in the proverbial sense. And I think certain kinds of "interesting" makes people reach for function over form.
Personally, I link my own decline in "gothing it up," to a long period of unemployment and lack of funds, and the depression that goes hand in hand with that - followed by the need to look employable by more corporate entities. And most recently, by the desire to get back into theatre, which won't get very far if I have fire-colored dreads, unfortunately.
I don't know where that explanation fits into the grand scheme of things, but I wouldn't doubt it if there were one or two parallels with the general goth-ulation.
I should also note that I'm growing older, and finally figuring out what flatters me most. Black hair, for instance, does not. People most often commented that I looked ill (and not in a good way). :D
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This is very true, and not at all a bad thing. I just wish that more people would understand that form can be added to function with not a lot of effort.
I suspect I will end up making another post about The Scene, and how I'm *tired* of the jadedness, the snarkiness, the "Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt" cynicism that has infested goth culture over the last decade or so. Yes, the whole "darkly romantic/vampires/let's read Poe by candlelight/let's take pictures in the graveyard!" thing IS silly, but I don't quite get how it's automatically worse than spending your time flaming strangers on the Internet.
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Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I think I've been seeing more baby bats out here on the east side, even on sunny July days. Coincidence? I think not.
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But, because I'm selfish, I want a long, detailed post on your thoughts about this. :)
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2) You're right about the state of the scene. In toto.
3) Now I feel guilty. May lightning strike me if I ever claimed to be a free-standing goth. At least I'm wearing the raver/goth crossover outfit today.
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I think my main gripe is people who treat the goth scene as nothing more interesting or visually stimulating than hanging out in their living room. Well, that, and the jaded cynicism. I think I'll be making another post about that in the near future.
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an even longer ramble :-)
I'm sure this must have varied regionally & by year & by age of participant. For example, when I was in high school (83-87), both goths & punks dressed up a lot & were defined by their clothes. IMO, that was mostly a function of high school. It's a time when everyone defined themselves by their looks. Popular kids dressed one way, brainy kids dressed another, same w/goths & punks.
Also, in the 'burbs, dressing differently was a really easy & obvious way to "rebel." When, as a teen, I gothed up (tho' I was not accepting of the "goth" lable then -- I was "alternative" or "mod" as we called anything that was weird but not all-punk or all-goth) & went to Berkeley & SF, I saw a lot more varied clothing styles so my teenage "rebellion" blended in.
In college when I moved to Berkeley ('87-'91), I discovered more levels of goth, punk, & alternatives, both in town & in the San Francisco clubs. Maybe it's a Bay Area thing, I dunno, but there were & are many varieties of goth & mixes of goth style + punk, rave, current trends, etc. AntiquityGoth has long had a little contingent here, but there's always been some variety.
I don't think it's wholly accurate to blame the Internet for making goth "easy." Pop culture did that, the net was just a helping hand. The moves in music from grunge to metal, the popularity of Nine Inch Nails & Marilyn Manson, those helped. Tim Burton went from Beetlejuice to Batman. Anne Rice's novels became increasingly huge bestsellers thru the '80s & '90s. Vampire: the Masquerade was published & a big success. High fashion toyed w/goth a la Urban Decay, Chanel's Vamp, Christian LaCoix, the heroin chic thing. Hot Topic. In the '90s, goth became simply another color in the palette of styles anyone could choose from. Which watered it down for everyone.
there wasn't quite the level of ironic cynicism and jadedness that there is today.
I think that's society on the whole. Irony is the fashion for everyone these days. Cynicism has been far too common since, oh, Douglas Copeland, IMO. It's gotten worse & worse everywhere. Goths have it too, but we didn't start the fire. Nor, again, did the Internet, but that certainly made it easier to spread such things.
Now, as to your general nostalgia for a time when ppl dressed up pretty, well, I hear ya. However, the only places I've ever discovered that to be true in large numbers was at special events. Concerts, Halloween, particular club nights. Back when SJ had a regular goth club that I went to, dress was fairly generic all-black, from t-shirts & jeans to long skirts & a little PVC. Not too many ppl went all out, which I attribute to being SJ. The SF clubs were a mix too, but would have a few more ppl in really fancy garb. There was one club, A Winter Gone By, that was pretentiously super-goth, & even I felt underdressed. But that wasn't the norm everywhere.
The only place I've seen large numbers of goths dressed WAY up (like, a room full of
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Re: an even longer ramble :-)
::nod nod nod::
And, typically, I'm of two minds about that. On the one hand, that means that maybe the Average Person won't automatically think "Iiiieee! Blood-drinking, baby-sacrificing Satanist!" when they see a goth, which is good. On the other hand ... 'watered down' is a good way of describing it.
I do wonder if my wistfulness about people dressing up is me thinking of a Platonic Ideal of a goth scene. I suspect it is. That won't make me any less wistful.
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Re: an even longer ramble :-)
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I also suspect that it is.
However, I think part of the issue is that so much of the goth scene is now *grown up*. The core passion for the aesthetic/philosophy might still be there, but it's influenced by how things change with adulthood. The responsibilities are different, the tolerances are different, the priorities are different. And there's just the general process of evolution; no one who's reasonably mature and sane wants to be *exactly the same* as they were 10/15/20 years ago. What was more important than anything in the universe at 15 looks different at 35, for all those reasons.
There is also a fundamental disdain in American culture for "needless" formality and froufrou, and here it's exacerbated by Seattle's Gore-tex and flannel mindset. Dressing up is not celebrated and anticipated; it's a chore or something that causes anxiety. I think that general air permeates even the subcultures, so that people don't see the level of dress some of us get up to regularly (and that you get up to every day) as being something to do for its own sake, just for really, really special occasions. (Folks from here who've gone to Wave Gotik Treffen have expressed astonishment at the level of dress people get up to for tromping around at a half-open-air festival.)
And insert my usual griping about it being an industrial scene, not a goth scene. It's all about vinyl, reflective tape, and cold hardware these days; that's how the fashion aesthetic has evolved as the music has gotten harder and more impersonal.
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Re: an even longer ramble :-)
That's a good (and very true) point. Maybe I'm just cranky because for a large(ish) cross-section of the goth scene, "grown up" seems to translate to "apathetic, and somewhat disdainful of those who aren't".
And insert my usual griping about it being an industrial scene, not a goth scene.
Heh. We need to develop some sort of shorthand for that whole rant/conversation. I know
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Re: an even longer ramble :-)
I also think virtually nothing beautiful remains exactly as it was, and that part of what makes something ephemeral beautiful is that it will change forms, that it crossed paths with yours at the perfect time, like a sublime piece of music that you heard at just the right moment of time in your life. You'll never rehear the song for the first time ever again, the circumstances will never be precisely the same--but you can play the CD many times.
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I still dress up. :)
When I do go out, which isn't that often, I really dress up. On work days, I do what I can to push the edge of corpgoth clothing. On the weekends, I am usually gothy or egl dressed up.
I used to get flack for it, but now I don't care. I've altered my wardrobe enough that I don't think I *could* dress 'non-gothy' if I tried (jammies aside - although those have skulls and bats on them too...lol).
I take advantage of the fact that Seattle in general doesn't dress up. It makes it all the easier for me...no one to compete with...haha.
I also like the fact that now I have nothing to prove. I did when I was younger...or at least I felt like I did. Now, it's just me, it's what I like. I know my style has evolved and matured (well, not the egl stuff..lol), but I still take pride in the details.
I think we need to have more fancy-dress outings. :)
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And what exactly would be the point, then?
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That said, it was much easier to stick to the aesthetic when the space you had available to decorate was a dorm room, and the only thing you had to get up for was an 11am lecture. I own and wear on a regular basis now clothing that would have made me weep with shame a decade ago. (And my platonic ideal of hair ain't happening for another couple of years, due to rug rat.)
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I especially wish I was making that last one up. No, rubbing amethyst on the monitor will not repair the display.
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But yes, I know what you mean. The questions very hopeful urchins have asked me because I look like what they think a Wiccan/witchy-type should look like ... oh dear, oh dear.
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In the case of at least 5 of us, that I know responding, we are offspring free too. Once kids came in to the picture and more responsibility..I noticed a drop in many social circles. Conventions, Renaissance fair, or clubbing..it all takes time, money, and commitment on some level. Fully dressed with make-up, hair, and accessories used to be the only way I left the house. By the time I started caring for the nephews my lovely vintage Goodwill find clothing had turned in to Goodwill black jeans and t-shirts. In truth...I value the... true over the top... dress up moments more because of the rarity. You my dear are the lovable Mary Poppins of Goth. In my case there are aspects of my younger self-absorbed clothing horse girl that I really don't miss.
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However, I'm not seeing the same level of commitment to The Scene and the aesthetic from other people and from the younger generations. Maybe I'm not looking in the right places. I'd be really pleased if that was the case, that people could say "No, go here. Talk to these people. Look at this.", and my wistfulness & free-floating nostalgia could be taken care of easily.
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Maybe in a few more years there will be historical recreation groups and elder Goths will be highly prized for their knowledge and wisdom. :0 )
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perfect
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I am also annoyed by certain types of cynicism. I responded with this elsewhere and thought you might enjoy it. I am also known for this opinion from other situations but often have difficulty putting it into words. I might not have done so badly at expressing it this time.
(disclaimer: stream of consciousness rambling ahead - chuckle) I also stand firmly against the assumption that nice is a four letter word and automatically disqualified as insincere. Anti-niceties rob our subculture of some of it's elegance for the adaptation of blind cynicism; which I find to be an opiate of a privileged society and doesn't rank as highly in my book of privileges as the bohemian pursuit of beauty and liberty ... for example.
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(Yes, open commenting invitation. I'm tempted to post a link to this on GR, and see what sort of discussion or feedback develops.)
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And that drama thing, oh please. I remember the early scene being intensely passionate. About everything. I do not remember drama for the sake of drama.
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BINGO!
I mean, sure, there was drama about who was dating/sneaking around on/breaking up with whom, about what off-hand comment was being transformed via Chinese Whispers. That's part of life. But searching out strangers to mock and heckle, going and making rude, inflammatory comments to people just because you could and you were bored? Not quite the way I remember Times Past.
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(Yes, open commenting invitation. I'm tempted to post a link to this on GR, and see what sort of discussion or feedback develops.)
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I am tired of people wearing rude and overbearing opinionation as some sort of favour to the population and banner for congratulations as if it carries a greater concentration of honesty than more considerate and mannerly behavior. It irks me a great deal to see that attitude gaining some sort of vogue, and it reminds me of Ben Kingsley in Death and Maiden to boot.
(pardon my brief generalized opinionated rambling O.O)
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Okay, I'm sitting here with dye in my hair in preparation for one of my rarer weekend appearances, but I promise I'll get my thoughts together on this one and come back. On my local forum, we have been having this same discussion. It's almost as if the younger generation is speaking a different language, and I've had to jump through hoops to keep the discussion civil at times. I am in my 30's, have never stopped being "weird" in public since my early teens and have always done it up when going to a club. I miss seeing what everyone else has come up with.
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I miss seeing what everyone else has come up with.
Yes! So many ideas sparked by looking at other goths out and about and thinking "That's really nifty. I wonder was sort of twist I can put on that."
Many of us made jokes about 'gloomcookies' who looked like they were all stamped from the same mold, but I *have* noticed the marked increase in cookie-cutter goth looks over the years, and it saddens me.
(As I mentioned to
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It's not a hard thing to work for something you love. I just spent the evening sewing an ensemble to wear tomorrow. It's not a chore, it's an adventure. I even dyed my hair a brighter red to match the spiderweb in the fabric. This is what I love. Perhaps it's not the same for a lot of the younger folks.
And as far as music at clubs goes... I miss hearing music with guitars.
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Oh good grief YES.
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Hallelujah.
I *still* have dead roses hanging on my wall. I think I always will. *sigh*
And frufru empty masks that I have worn, and usually made on the walls. And art. real, honest to goodness, not a print, art.
the real irony in the cliche about reading poetry in the graveyard, for me, is that I remember going to the cemetary to relax and dance and be away from people and imagine the lives of the dead and party in our dreary/too happy/silly way - never distrespectful, but never overly reverent about where we were either, more *realistic* about death being part of life.
What I miss is less the dressing up (mainly because I still *do* dress up, even when I dress *down* I am still more dressed up than the majority of the folks at the clubs), and more the real *to the bone* gothyness - the real conversations with people who actually THOUGHT about what they were talking about and who listened to what others had to say and THOUGHT about that too. I have been formulating a post that is not on the subject, but is what I have been thinking about lately, and it will have that flavor.
I miss the spirit of comraderie. I miss the easy identification of our tribe. I miss the pre-MALL days. Not that I would like to still be wearing shredded black nylons and torn fishnets and chunky belts, just that I miss the days when everyone really had a distinct flavor that was their own. I miss the days when your fashion was more DIY than off the rack. And having your clothing made for you is DIY in a fashion, more so than hitting Hot Topic at Bellesquare.
I could go on and on.
I think the loss of fashion is related to the loss of individuality and identity the scene (at large) has so much of these days. I think that because a lot of elders have either dropped out of the scene or given up dressing up that the new folks have no good role models around to show them the way.
I know that the recession has had a major effect on the amount of dressing up people have been doing for the last 5 years. Not just in the "can't afford new things" vein, but also in the "have to blend into the office to get a job" vein (which is why I dress up less often than I once did). I look forward to the time when I do not have to worry about scaring the people I work with when I dress over the top.
I dress up every time I go out. So does a certain hair stylist we know, and her ex-roommate as well. Alexia always dresses up. DJED always does. Mickey dressed up every time she is going OUT or going to the club to work (although the latter involves far more nudity, as this garners better tips).
I could go on and on and on, and I am tired and in ramble mode so I will stop here. ;)
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a look on thing from the other side of the world
(warning rambling ahead)
First of all, i do think it's a problem of where you live. I know this quite look because of the fact that i live about 10 miles from the german border, and have been to a few german goth-parties, and i can tell you, it's quite different to the dutch scene. The type of music, the way they dress, even the way they dance, it's all different. But enough of that, back to my own country. Here in the netherlands you can already see, that there are 2 "groups". Namely the wavers, and the cybergothics ( alltough this is kinda a big group, because i'm basing this on the type of music they played at the parties, because we only have a few who realy dress up as something you can see shining from a mile away:P)
And then there is the group that the media is calling goths. The metal kiddies. These are the 15 year old kids who think they are goth, because of the fact that a metal band (although the term symphonic rock is also being used) had a breaktrough in the charts here. Add that together with manson, cradle of fith, and evanescene and we have a person who thinks he/she is goth. And these are the ones who have to run around all dressed up at daytime. And to be honest, most "real" goths hate them. I do have to admit that these are the people who go on the internet and "take the easy way". This is the main reason why the vampire-freaks, wicca worshippers ect ect are not loved.
But back to the real scene and not the wannebees. I have been to quite a few parties the last year all across the country (not that hard if your country is a 200 miles drive from one side to the other), so i can say a bit about the current "look" of the people. I can tell you it even matters at what part of the country you live foor the look. So is the west maar cybers and "coloured" then the south where people prefer tradition full black. Also the type of clothing clothing (victorian, stocking-wave look, cyber look, matrix look (couldn't think of a better name, sorry)
But in general, quite a few dress up, but there are enought who don't, altough black is kinda smart colour to go for then. But in general its more how the person behaves that how he looks, and i totaly agree with. Mostly because quite often the really dressed up people are the ones who dress up to compensate for their personalty.
But then again, the dutch scene is quite an interesting one, because we tend to have a sense of humor ( i don;t know how else to say it). For example: a song from neurotic fish called "they're coming to take me away" is a hit here with us, no where else in the world. Even the singer from the band was suprised about that. And when a dutch dj played that song on a party at the wave gothic treffen in leipzig, the dutch people went crazy, a few other people contiued dancing, and the rest of the people stood there with a look of their faces witc say: the the fuck is going on here. And yes , we (the dutch people), tought that was funny to see the rest of the people with that look.:P
Sorry for making this such a long comment, but i kinda got carried away. But in short: Internet may have made it easier for people to find out about gothic, but i do think the way gothic in being lived is more a regional thing and a personal one, then something on witch the internet has influence. And that not every one always dresses up, i think it's also part of a feeling they have. If you're already an outsider (wether in your mind or in reality), dressing up wil even make it worse. Being a goth is something that is inside of you, not how you present yourself to other people.
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Re: a look on thing from the other side of the world
You think you got to this post via
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Re: a look on thing from the other side of the world
from: [info]wingedelf
[info]prncsmoonbeam as Gilly. Duh. She's already got the wardrobe... and the personality. Rumour even has it that she was the basis of the character.